Again, looking at putting more stuff on this blog of mine that I am less likely to get kicked off of, I got the idea of putting some of the more interesting dialogs that I am having in other places here. So below is a recent conversation I had.
RP: I made a post about Yahweh being the one who lied in the garden and that he was the one Jesus was talking about in John 8:44, and people had a lot of very negative comments towards me. Let me be clear: I love Jesus Christ very much and believe he died on the cross so I could have eternal life. He is my lord and savior. With that said, I do not believe Yahweh, the God in the Old Testament is Jesus’ father. Yahweh is the murderer and father of lies Jesus speaks of in John 8:44.
OG: You’re a Gnostic. Okay. You have absolutely no reasonable justification for your belief that Yahweh is evil. The only way you could possibly believe that Yahweh of the Hebrew Bible is not the Father of Jesus in the New Testament is if you can’t even be bothered to ever in your life even look at a Bible with a rational eye. Now go ahead and clump me in with all those mean posts without thinking about what I said.
Yahweh and the serpent thought of what was meant by death differently than you do. Nobody had ever experienced a cessation of biological processes when those statements were made. Do you even know what death means?
RP: Except he kills thousands of people, requires sacrifices, human and animal of the first born, circumcisions, shall I keep going? I would hate to see what you consider evil.
OG: Yeah. That’s your problem. Ignorance. The problem is, in order for you to be straightened out, you will have to learn. And for that, you would have to be open to accepting the truth. And you don’t want to do that. You’ve already decided who you hate. So there is no point in interacting with you other than to point you out to others who have not made a decision. But, in the interest of general instruction, I’ll leave you with a few nuggets.
The fact that the Bible contains things strange to you might be an indication that it’s beyond you, and you should humble yourself. You are mad about death, but we already know you don’t know what death is.
ALL life on earth ends. Whether at 20 years, 50 years, or 90 years. The ONLY time you are mad about it is when God tries to teach you something involving the end of life.
The end of life on earth is not the end. It’s only the beginning. Thinking the end of life on earth is the greatest evil tells us that when it comes down to it, you are basically an atheist thinking that life on earth is all there is to worry about.
So you say Jesus has nothing in common with Yahweh. When Jesus comes back with his army of angels and saints, he will annihilate the Antichrist, his armies, his governments, and those who hate heaven and the righteous. Our beloved Jesus will slaughter hundreds of millions of people. Maybe billions.
You say Jesus died for your sins, but you hate Yahweh for telling you about that by the slaughter of an animal. Now after I finish this comment to you, I am going out to eat a chicken that somebody slaughtered. Are you vegetarian? Or are you a murderer of animals like this Yahweh you hate? Do you hate us omnivores as much as you hate God?
So I’ll leave you with a few words from this evil Yahweh that you hate.
but the seventh year you shall let it rest and lie fallow, that the poor of your people may eat; and what they leave the beasts of the field may eat. You shall do likewise with your vineyard, and with your olive orchard.Exodus 23:11
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.Matthew 5:3
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, who is not partial and takes no bribe. He executes justice for the fatherless and the widow, and loves the sojourner, giving him food and clothing. Love the sojourner, therefore, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.Deuteronomy 10:17-19
You are so mad about life ending, you don’t care about justice, and don’t recognize it when you see it. And you just assume that the death described in the Bible is sinful and unjust.
So you have the name of Jesus who you claim as your savior, but I’ve run into people who don’t claim he is the Messiah who impress me. And I have run into people who call Jesus their Lord and master who can’t show me any evidence of divine character or wisdom whatsoever.
Among those who don’t think Jesus is the Messiah who impress me are those who can recognize that the divine message in the Bible, starting at Genesis, is consistent, and that the things that Jesus said and did are consistent with the message of love, and justice, and fairness, honesty, and forgiveness that is all over the Hebrew Bible.
So this is a first shot at putting some internet banter on my blog. I’ve been doing this kind of thing for over a decade, and that comes after decades of various phases of commitment to Christian evangelism. Over all it has largely bereaved me of whatever faith in humanity I was holding on to. I suppose I am thankful for that, as I don’t like being attached to illusions. However, I am kind of tired of the whole process and have been doing less and less of it, and I don’t know how much more of it I will do. Especially since saying anything to anyone gets one banned from social media.
As for this dialog, the guy couldn’t spell. I had to clean up his errors. He obviously didn’t have the intellect to relate to anything I or anyone would say to him to convince him of what I am sure he thought were his genius conclusions. The fact is, almost no one can. That is why emotive reaction is the only thing that works with people. Russel Brand said, “Any true conversion experience is going to be predicated on the complete collapse of the ego.” I think this is true.
Further, though, the last couple of years have shown me that there is no qualitative difference in behavior between any given Judaist (Someone, usually Jewish, but not always, who practices the religion of Judaism), Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or Atheist, neither in terms of intellect or intelligence or ethical character. Further, I run into more and more Judaists who do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but who very often praise him as consistent with what they see in the Torah, who impress me with their intellect, wisdom, character, and insight to a far greater degree than those who do accept Jesus as the Messiah.
Now my encounter with this guy was something of a flip side of an encounter with a Judaist. So if a Judaist is someone who accepts only the Hebrew Bible as valid, and a Christian or a Messianic is someone who accepts the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and New Testament as valid, this guy is a strain of Gnostic, one that accepts ONLY the New Testament as valid. He didn’t show me anything in terms of character that would convince me either way of the genuineness of his faith in Jesus. The fact that he couldn’t figure out that God in the Hebrew Bible is God in the New Testament is a serious impediment to my thinking this guy knows anything about God, partly because he can’t know anything about theology, but also he just can’t seem to read. Nobody who actually read the Bible could come up with such a thing, but Christians who have never read the Bible and know nothing about it are a dime a dozen.
Also, though, Christians are always quick to point out that Christians who don’t act up to speed are false Christians. That is, if you believe in Jesus but don’t act right, you’re not really a Christian who knows God. But if you don’t believe in Jesus, no matter how you act, you can’t be a person who knows God. So this guy claims the name of Jesus, but obviously knows nothing about what anything is about. What about those who don’t claim the name Jesus but obviously know every bit of what Jesus was about? I’ve run into a few of those.
That’s the crisis of theology I am in currently. I use the word crisis clinically. It’s not one of my PTSD crises. I am not crying about this. But I am at an intellectual impasse. And I don’t know how to proceed. I’ve basically gotten a sign from God to discharge both barrels of whatever rage I can load twelve gauge slugs into at the Christian church. I think because the Messiah Jesus is as angry at it as I am. I think God made me that way. They are the new Pharisees. Wouldn’t hug an enemy if you paid them. Wouldn’t clothe a stranger if you gave them a reach around. On the contrary, I am seeing all the time, Rabbinic Jews, Karaite Jews, and other Christ denying groups who do. Surprisingly, it’s usually the ones who tell me something like: “No, Jesus isn’t the Messiah. He definitely isn’t God. The New Testament is all kinds of messed up. But the things Jesus said and did are totally cool, and totally consistent with what I see in the Torah. He was a good rabbi.”
And it’s because of this stuff I am seeing lately that has me in a real dilemma in terms of what I am supposed to say to people about Jesus. Like, I am really getting to a point where this stuff isn’t just my own spiritual experience. It isn’t about my own emotional well-being or spiritual path or that of any other person. It’s actually getting to my understanding of basic, dogmatic truth.
That’s why I decided to include this online debate on my blog. Moses never heard the name Jesus. David never heard the name Jesus. We can be pretty sure they are with God now. But a whole lot of inquisitors and crusaders claimed him as their lord and savior. And it’s getting to the point where my basic dogmatic theological truths that I have known for decades are being forced to change. And once these change, what I will tell people will change. So I am a bit uncertain.
This post script has turned out longer than I thought it would. Have a great day!